This conversation provides valuable insights into the future of sustainability in the beauty and wellness industry. Here are some key takeaways:
- Focus on Efficiency and Affordability: Brad Levin emphasizes the need for technological advancements that make sustainable packaging more efficient and affordable, especially for startup and indie brands. This would help these smaller companies compete with larger brands without the high upfront costs.
- Challenges for Large Brands: Transitioning to sustainable packaging is a costly and disruptive process for large companies. For them, it’s a significant investment in design, manufacturing, and new equipment. However, if smaller brands can adopt sustainable practices from the start, they could avoid these challenges as they grow.
- Consumer Preferences: Ease of recycling is crucial for consumers when it comes to sustainable packaging. Brands can make sustainability more accessible by simplifying the process of recycling, avoiding overly complicated packaging that requires separation of different materials.
- Brand Identity: Clear communication about sustainability through labels, like the recycling triangle, and branding efforts is important. Consumers are becoming more aware of sustainability, so brands that integrate it into their identity through packaging and marketing can attract more attention.
- Retailer Support: Retailers can play a role by creating a section for sustainable brands or communicating which brands are eco-friendly. However, it's primarily the responsibility of the brand to lead this change and educate consumers about their sustainable practices.
- Technological Tools in Packaging Design: While technologies like 3D printing and AI can streamline packaging design, they are currently expensive. The challenge is finding a balance between innovation and simplicity. Some brands are using these tools, but they still need to be refined to become more cost-effective for widespread use.
- Brand Differentiation: While the natural, minimalistic look is appealing to some consumers, color and vibrant packaging still play a significant role in distinguishing a brand on the shelf. It’s important for brands to balance sustainability with effective visual appeal to maintain their market presence.
In conclusion, Brad highlights the importance of supporting the startup and indie brand community in adopting sustainable packaging, while also pushing for better recycling facilities and technology. The industry’s future depends on the ability to make sustainability accessible to all brands, regardless of size.
Brad – 2024/11/01 10:52 EDT – Transcript
Attendees
brad levin, Rachel Baker
Transcript
brad levin: My name is Brad Levin.
Rachel Baker:
Rachel Baker: Okay, thanks for joining me today, Brad. why don't you introduce yourself for the audience and talk about what you're doing?
brad levin: I have a company called RNS packaging. we focus primarily on CPG and retail display type packaging, but also to my line has always been if you have a physical product, you need some sort of physical package and we can pretty much make that for you.
Rachel Baker: Very what are the main cost drivers in cosmetic packaging and how should brand owners optimize for cost efficiency without sacrificing quality.
brad levin: I mean, the biggest one is volume. the more you buy, the cheaper the price gets. But, it's a double-edged sword because I always look at anything that's going on the shelf is part of your marketing and part of your branding. So, yes, there are less expensive ways of doing things. there's less expensive options if they fit your brand, but I think it's important to focus on what you really want to have on that shelf.
brad levin:
brad levin: And sometimes you may end up paying a little bit more than you want for it, but if it's getting that message out and it's demonstrating your brand or…
brad levin: illustrating your brand, that's more important to me than a few pennies here or there's not really a contract per se.
Rachel Baker: Yeah. …
Rachel Baker: so what are the best practices for negotiating pricing and contracts with pricing packaging suppliers?
brad levin: I mean, I guess it is if you're, are doing large amounts of business, but if you're, a typical company, I think the thing is that, if you have a line of products and you're working with one plant, typically you should be getting best cost or best pricing from them.
brad levin:
brad levin: if they know that this is something that's going to be rerun, and they have a business, this is a line of revenue for them, they'll typically work with you in that sense to get a price that works for you.
Rachel Baker: Mhm.
brad levin: If it's a oneoff deal, it's a little tougher to negotiate that. But, it's again, you don't want to give up what you want, So you have core things that you want in your packaging and you don't want to sacrifice that for a nickel there. I think it defeats the purpose of what your brand is saying. So there are ways it also depends the plant that you're working with. there plants that if you're a startup they focus on short runs whereas and you'll probably get better pricing out of that than one that typically does large runs but is trying to fit you in.
brad levin:
brad levin: So, knowing who you're working with, knowing who the plant is or what type of plant it is can help. and again, having a relationship with somebody at the plant and not just,…
brad levin: throwing in an order. anything else, people that know people and have relationships, that person's going to go a little extra to see what they can do for you.
Rachel Baker: Yeah. …
Rachel Baker: so how should brands evaluate their suppliers?
brad levin: I think there's two main things. One is quality and two is dependability. lead times meeting deadlines is key. but also understanding how that plant works and realizing that you're not getting your product tomorrow. realizing that understanding what their lead times are and if you're able to work with that that's great.
brad levin:
brad levin: If not, then maybe you need to be looking somewhere else. But if you can plan your business, I mean, you can't plan it around packaging, but you have to take in account, lead times. And it's the same for the products and…
brad levin: the ingredients that you're getting. everything is based kind of around that. So, planning, I think, is probably the biggest key there.
Rachel Baker: So switching gears to focus a little bit more on sustainability.
Rachel Baker: What sustainable materials and processes are most valuable viable in cosmetic packaging today?
brad levin:
brad levin: That's a loaded question.
brad levin: I think I'm going to answer this a little bit in a different way. I think that a lot of brands and not that they're not doing the right thing but they are checking boxes to some extent of sustainability and then trying to take that to another level which is great and it's and I always say any little bit helps.
Rachel Baker: All right. Sure.
00:05:00
brad levin: My theory on this has changed a little bit over the years and what I've realized is that it's not what the brand is doing, it's what the end user is doing. So, you have to make it simple for the consumer. So, there are brands that will have boxes that have different substrates in them. maybe it's a recyclable window in there. you're asking a mother, for example, that has three kids running around the house nuts to take the time and separate these different substrates and put them in the right cans and make sure they get in the right place. I have a hard time doing that and I don't have three kids running around, so I'm a fan of the motto material.
brad levin:
brad levin: it's that KISS me message of keep it simple stupid and getting I think consumers will appreciate that and I think it's not even about their appreciation it'll make the sustainability model move further along it'll get more things to where they're supposed to go and my theory my line has always been you can have the most sustainable package but if it doesn't get where it's supposed to go does it really matter So,…
brad levin: but that being said, there's a lot of great developments going on. I think, or all PCR material is great. it's postconsumer recycled material.
Rachel Baker: what is PCR plastic and…
Rachel Baker: and PCR materials? So, okay. Okay.
brad levin: So I get a plastic box, I put in the recycling bin, it goes to recycling.
brad levin: They use that to make more sheets for, plants packaging companies to use. So, they're using recycled material is basically what it is. and I think it's keeping new waste out of the environment. it's just recycling the same thing. it's a little bit of difference in quality, I think. specifically in plastic, you might see it being
brad levin: a little darker. but you'd have to really look at it to see that. And the paper is probably not quite as strong as it was after it's recycled. But that being said, I think it's about minimizing things and I said, keeping it simple for the consumer to do because at the end of the day, it falls on them to recycle it. And I think, there The other thing about it is there's, new types of recyclable material, but not every place in this nation has compost places where you can take things or if they do, they could be really far from where your consumer lives.
brad levin:
brad levin: So from that standpoint, I mean, it's a great thing,…
brad levin: but we have to increase the amount of those places where we can get that done because again, if it doesn't get there, it doesn't really matter.
Rachel Baker: Yeah. …
Rachel Baker: are there materials that work particularly well with existing recycling infrastructure? Yeah.
brad levin: I mean, paper's always easily recyclable. and plastic can be recycled now, too. and I'm just thinking about cosmetic packaging. Obviously, plastic can be recycled, but from that standpoint, yeah, it can be made out of, all recycled material or a high grade of it.
brad levin:
brad levin: One of the things is that I was mentioning before, the strength of the material kind of decreases over time and the amount of times it's been recycled or what have you. but yeah, I mean, pretty much from a primary packaging perspective, you could pretty much do almost anything at this point, I think. that's a very general statement, but you can have bottles that are recyclable or recycled. any plastic right now can pretty much be recycled. So, it's just the other side of it is the cost of it though. You're paying more for that and it's a battle for startup companies…
Rachel Baker: Yeah.
brad levin: because I know a majority of them are very tuned into the sustainability model. but they can't always afford it.
brad levin: So, I tell the story all the time that I was working with a woman, the startup cosmetic company. And she said, "I want 100% reclable recycled material for all my packaging." I said, "Okay." I said, "I don't know that you're going to be able to afford it, but let's go down the road." And of course, she couldn't afford, 99% of it. so my theory on it is every step that you take is better than not taking a step at all. So you can't be everything to everyone. and as you grow, you can become more and more sustainable, but if you can't afford it, then your Then you can't make the brand. Then you're out of business. So there are other ways of tackling the sustainability other than just material.
00:10:00
brad levin:
brad levin: and maybe you look at some of the plants that you're using, how sustainable are they and…
brad levin: what are they doing? But, it's a complicated issue because I get the idea of people wanting that sustainability, but right now it's just not always feasible.
Rachel Baker: Yeah. I'm kind of curious about products like mascara or… lip gloss, where the product is inside this tube and it's very difficult to get all of that product out and clean it. are there easy ways to make that more recyclable or sustainable? Yeah.
Rachel Baker:
brad levin: I mean, when I think of that, I think about the narrowness of the opening and being able to get in there to actually clean it all out.
brad levin:
brad levin: I mean that's not really my specialty, but my thought is I mean obviously you can rinse it out. You can stick a two tip down there and try to scoop it all out, but I don't know that there's really necessarily an answer from a brand perspective to get that done. I'm not aware of it,…
Rachel Baker: Mhm. …
brad levin: I think that that goes along the lines of tempering expectations. there's some things that you just can't do. And, this world's never going to be 100% sustainable. it's just not possible, I don't think. but again, minimizing the packaging, using recycled material, I think are probably the two most effective things that we can do right now.
brad levin:
Rachel Baker: so what challenges do brands typically face when shifting to friendly packaging options?
brad levin: cost is the main one.
brad levin: And two is options and availability. typically secondary packaging you can pretty much accomplish. I think it's probably a little bit harder on the primary packaging, but you sacrifice a little bit of quality. Also, if you're looking at, the bottle for the pump is typically clear, you're going to see it get a little bit darker. We're getting better at it, but it's not crystal clear as it used to be, as it would be if it was virgin plastic.
brad levin: but there's other ways. I know this is about packaging, but it's not always about the packaging. if you're running a plant you can be more efficient with the plant using solar panels, different types of machinery, there's, kind of your supply chain line there of optimizing that. So there it's not just the material of the packaging, So there are other ways that if you can't be fully sustainable in packaging, you can still contribute to that cause, through your operations.
Rachel Baker: right? so…
brad levin:
Rachel Baker: what about recycled packaging makes it more expensive than
brad levin: it has to go through more processes to create.
brad levin: And it also adds to the cost of it going through that process. so it's just not going to be as clear and it's not going to be as strong because you're running it through machines more. it just weakens over time. but, to me as a consumer or just looking at a package on the shelf, I mean, I think it nine out of 10, you're not going to know the difference.
brad levin:
brad levin: you may see a slight tint to it if it's clear, but it's nothing in my opinion, especially with the attitudes around sustainability now, that anybody would hold against a brand.
00:15:00
Rachel Baker: Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Baker: I mean, I think for a lot of consumers that can be a reason to buy rather than a turnoff.
brad levin: Right. Right.
Rachel Baker: Are there any new innovative materials or…
Rachel Baker: packaging designs like biodegradable, recycling, plant-based in the market that we should consider? this is basically an open floor for you to talk about anything you think is cool.
brad levin: I mean,…
brad levin: there's a lot of cool I'm a big fan just of the monomaterial thing. So, keeping it the same all the way through so it doesn't have to be separated.
brad levin: there are some plant-based things and everything but I think again it becomes a cost thing until we have plants that can efficiently produce these types of papers or materials or convert them I should say it becomes a cost thing and you're not going to whatever it is that's out there, whether it's soy paper or this or that. there's a lot of different options. I don't think it's affordable for the brands, unless they're very wellunded or very established brand. And, I think to some extent it deters people from entering the market. that's why I'm always like every step you take is better than not taking a step.
brad levin:
brad levin: you do one thing now and then you can move down, increase the whatever it is that you're looking to achieve. But I don't think that there's first of all,…
Rachel Baker:
brad levin: there's no silver bullet here. there's not one thing that's going to change. And again I do like my brain's freezing right now, but the different materials that are coming out that have been out now different types of paper and different types of plastic. I think it's great, but we have to be able to make it affordable for the smaller brands.
Rachel Baker: Yeah. Yeah. do you have any insights on how you can make it more affordable for small BR brands or…
brad levin:
Rachel Baker: what brands can do to incorporate more sustainable practices in an affordable way?
brad levin: Yeah, I mean I think brands can do a lot of things.
brad levin: Minimizing material is the biggest one. maybe you don't need a box on the outside of it. Maybe it's just the bottle on the shelf, and there's a little bit of a dichotomy there because again, when you have something on the shelf, that's marketing like I had mentioned before. It's getting your brand out there. And there have been studies shown which that track people's eyes versus different types of packaging and it matters.
brad levin: and there was a study done a while back by Princeton and I think they had don't this maybe not exactly what right, but they had a paper carton on the shelf and a plastic a clear package on the shelf and they were filming the consumers and were tracking their eyes and the eyes just kept going back to the clear packaging and I think what they realize is that the artwork on clear packaging just pops off of and where also you see 15 brands of paper and one brand in plastic where does your eye go? It's like what so it's again I like to keep things simple. and I think the more basic people are the easier it is to recycle and we move forward that way. there's definitely new types of paper and pro and products out there.
brad levin:
brad levin: I don't know that they've all fully had enough time to be tested in the marketplace to see how they hold up and see, what the actual effects are. But the other side of it is that we don't have the mass recycling ability yet infrastructure to support all these different types of papers and plastics. So that's really the infrastructure has to catch up a bit.
Rachel Baker: Yeah. …
Rachel Baker: what circular economy practices are feasible for cosmetic packaging such as refillable or reusable options? Yeah.
brad levin: I think you just said the refillable is probably the best.
brad levin: And the biggest thing is eliminating new stuff, right? we're stuck with decreasing new stuff.
brad levin: So if you have a refillable container that means you don't have to go buy another one and introduce another package into the universe So I think refillable is great. I think that compostable stuff is great as well but again it goes back to what can we do with these do we have the infrastructure to recycle it. I do like the refillable option. The question is training people to do that and getting people in the habit of going back and refilling versus just going to buy a new one. So I said this is such a complex issue and it goes from where the ingredients are grown to what the consumer does to do the package at the end.
00:20:00
brad levin:
brad levin: So there's a lot of steps in there and it's getting everybody on the same page with that.
Rachel Baker: Mhm. Yeah.
brad levin: But again, it takes new technology. It takes a commitment to do this and the other thing is it takes the consumer has to be willing to maybe pay a little bit more. so again, a lot of this comes down to the consumer. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but it's like I said before, you could have the most sustainable package, but if it doesn't get to where it's going, it still ends up in a landfill. So, to me, it's about habits and people are stubborn and, they like the way they don't like to do new things. And, how many trash cans can you have out at the curb at one time?
brad levin:
brad levin: I know, again, it comes down to the single mother of three that has kids running all over the house.
Rachel Baker:
brad levin: Are they doing that? I don't think so. because I know I have a hard time doing it, and …
Rachel Baker: Yeah. …
brad levin: in a stable home with whatever. So, it's got to be habit forming. And unfortunately, a lot of it comes down to the consumer behavior. And it's up to the brands to keep pushing it. But the easier that they can make it for the end user, I think, is the best way to be successful with this.
Rachel Baker: so how should retailers when they're making procurement decisions evaluate a brand's packaging or…
brad levin:
Rachel Baker: I guess do you have insights into how that's done and how brands can be more successful. Yeah.
brad levin: I mean,…
brad levin: This is not my main focus, but to me, I think it comes down to knowing the retailers that you're with that you want to get into what they're looking for. But I know I keep coming back to this, but the simplicity of things I think makes it easier. if it's, mono material, I think that that helps. if it's, recycled material, that helps, it's but you still have to have your brand pop off the shelf.
brad levin: the stores need to think that it's going to sell, So, there has to be some distinguishing thing to it. it's hard if you go into a department store and go into, let's say, a cosmetic area, it's hard to advertise sustainable packaging, right? It's hard people are look or to make it stand out from all the others. You really have to look at it, and read the back if it's a sustainable package or not. So, if you're loyal to brand A and brand B comes along, what's going to make you move to B? Is it the sustainability part of it? I don't know. I people have brand loyalty.
brad levin:
brad levin: I think if you're looking for something new, then people may pay more attention to what the packaging is. And I think this younger generation coming up does pay more attention to that. and are not necessarily looking for the fanciest package or, what have you. I think that and…
brad levin: I think that's a great thing that they're sensitive to this and they're really driving this more than anybody. They're demanding it.
Rachel Baker: Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Baker: So what packaging trends are resonating with consumers today that you've noticed in the beauty industry?
brad levin: Anything recycled material. I do think the refillable options are important.
00:25:00
brad levin: but again it still comes down to and also the ingredients that go into the actual product but it still has to be a good product and it's just taking a simple box and I don't know what the exact percentages is but if you take virgin paper in a box versus recycled paper the recycled paper is not as strong as the virgin paper. So that can sometimes cause quality issues, in extreme cases. but I do like the idea of this younger generation that they are demanding this and they are more label conscious and they pay attention to these things more. So, being able to advertise, if you will, a little bit on your packaging about the recycled content probably holds more weight than somebody of my generation.
brad levin: So, I think it's important to let people know what you're doing. in a subtle way, but it's a hard thing, because inevitably, again, right now, all that stuff makes things more expensive. the gap is definitely a lot smaller than it was even two years ago, I'm sure. but the people that are demanding it will buy it and being able to let them know on your packaging. there's a triangle that goes on there and if you really want to advertise it you can print it on the box fully sustainable packaging or whatever it is whatever the statement you want to make. But I think that's the best way to get it out there.
brad levin:
brad levin: And I always go back to the co cosmetic industry and there's, …
Rachel Baker:
brad levin: you go to a shelf, there's a thousand brands on there. It's hard enough picking the one that you want, let alone the one that's sustainable, but I do think the cosmetic industry is making great progress and are somewhat leading the charge in this in terms of the sustainability aspect of it. I mean there's definitely focus study stuff that they do.
Rachel Baker: Yeah. …
Rachel Baker: so how should brands test packaging with consumers and know what's going to work and what isn't?
brad levin: I think that's a hard question.
brad levin: and I'm not really on the brand side, so it's difficult for me to answer that. But, I think, being aware of trends and, understanding your marketplace and what seems to be selling and what is probably, a major factor in that. and the other thing is listen, if you have something new and innovative, just put it out there, see what the response is because people are always into new things as long as it doesn't hurt their pocketbook too much. So, I know they do a lot of focus group studies, so before anything gets out there, they have an idea of whether or not it's going to sell.
brad levin:
brad levin: So that's a lot of the work that I think goes on behind the scenes to ensure that their package is going to work for the consumer there's twofold.
Rachel Baker: how do you envision the future of cosmetic packaging? and what changes do you anticipate in the next 5 to 10 years?
brad levin: I think it's going to be a move to monomaterial and a move to recycled material is going to continue to grow. I think the problem is said, there's no definitive answer here because, plastic, some of it can be recycled, some, glass can be recycled, but it's costs more money and it's heavier, So, it's a tricky thing.
brad levin:
brad levin: And I don't know what they do to kind of come up with their marketing scheme or, put new bottles out there boxes. I think that at the end of the day, what you see out there, it's not going to change that much. I think what it's going to happen is the technology is going to increase and hopefully we'll be able to recycle more things. but that's a ways away. So, I think it's just keeping current and, understanding what the market is demanding and understanding what your consumers are demanding and…
brad levin: being able to react to that.
00:30:00
Rachel Baker: …
Rachel Baker: what kind of technologies do you think will be coming out where do you see the most innovation happening?
brad levin: I think the biggest thing is going to be efficiencies. being able to run things faster with less energy and just being efficient in making and being able I think that the biggest thing is making this recycled material less expensive or more affordable to people and being able to kind of bridge that gap in pricing and making it more affordable for that startup or indie brand. which those are the brands that are going to drive the market going forward.
brad levin: So, it's great that the L'Oreal's of the world and the Revlons of the world, they can afford to do it And listen, that's a lot of plastic that they're taking out or a lot of recycling that they're doing which is fantastic. But, how do you support the younger brands that are coming up and making it effective for them? I think that's the biggest challenge. but it's doable. It's just a matter of being able to make these products more efficiently so that you can buy smaller quantities and not break your bank. I think that's really what the biggest thing is.
brad levin:
brad levin: being able to because think about it this way and I don't know what the numbers are but what did it cost to L'Oreal to go sustainable having to change a lot of their packaging or I'm just using L'Oreal I have no idea what they've done but a big company like that it's a cost to changing your packaging so
Rachel Baker:
brad levin: if we can make it affordable for startups and indie brands and they can start that way, think about that. they don't have to deal with that changing of things as they get bigger because it's a very costly thing and it's disruptive and it's, a whole thing. So, being able to afford it early on, I think drives us even more than it's being driven now.
Rachel Baker: What does it look like a large brand or…
brad levin:
Rachel Baker: I guess a brand of any size needs to change their packaging what's the kind of work that's involved in that
brad levin: It's deciding,…
brad levin: what you want to change to first of all. and then going into design, and making sure, your marketing or your branding on it fits and how you do that. it's almost like starting from scratch is really what it is. And then, obviously having a vendor that can make what you're looking for. pricing, making, and then, I don't think the process is that crazy.
brad levin: It's really but a lot of these larger brands they have filling machines for example or bottles go through you have to make sure that what you're getting is going to work in that technology or that manufacturing process so you're not then having to buy all the equipment so I think those are kind of the challenges but I don't think it's more of a costly thing than anything
brad levin: and how much inventory do you have in stock right now and having to get through that and then making that change into the new packaging I don't think it's a crazy endeavor part of it is also brand identity people recognize different bottles for different brands and you could walk in and that box and it screams to I've done a lot of work with Benefit Cosmetics in the past and their branding is amazing. It's just these bright colors and, it just jumps off of the shelf, and every time I go into a store, it's my eyes just go to it whenever, I see it. So, there's different ways of making things pop and what have you, but it's a process.
brad levin: the change it's not easy especially for a very large company so if you can going back to the start of an indie brand if you can start that way then you're ahead of the game and not having to go through it when you're down the road because it does change your branding a bit and it does change the product identity a little bit we're getting better at it and it's closer to the original than it used to be but yeah just imagine if you just didn't have to deal with that you had a great packaging
00:35:00
brad levin:
brad levin: to start with and could just stick with it and just increase volumes and ultimately that's going to save you money down the road because you start off with small volume you're paying X and as you grow and don't have to go through the change now you're saving money because you're ordering your margins going to increase because you're ordering this just larger amounts larger quantities so people probably disagree with me…
brad levin: but I think it's important to be able to get that startup and indie brand community more easily involved in the movement.
Rachel Baker: Yeah,…
Rachel Baker: I absolutely agree with you there. I guess so we sort of touched on this a little bit, but how do consumers view sustainable packaging? in cosmetics and what features resonate the most with them? are there particular things that resonate more less?
brad levin:
Rachel Baker: Are there?
brad levin: Yeah, you froze.
Rachel Baker: Okay.
brad levin: I didn't hear what you said.
Rachel Baker: What features most resonate with consumers with respect to sustainable packaging?
brad levin: Ease of recycling, not having to separate things into different cans. I think it's that simple. I know how I am and I'm in the sustainability space and I get something I'm like I got to take this apart.
brad levin: I just think it's making it as simple and easy as possible.
Rachel Baker: So…
Rachel Baker: what labeling or educational tools can help consumers understand the sustainability of products packaging?.
brad levin: the triangle always helps. and you can advertise it. there's no you could print it on the box, fully sustainable packaging. you can, in your branding and whatever commercials or ads that you have or, say how friendly you guys are or, it's just more about just getting it out there. It's not really how you do it. I think people now know that triangle means something, on box on packaging. And, printing it on there is not such a bad idea. I don't think it's a horrible thing.
brad levin:
brad levin: And it's also part of your branding of your company, saying that whether it's on commercials or ads or whatever, what you guys are doing to be more sustainable.
brad levin: And I think that will draw more attention to it.
Rachel Baker: So…
Rachel Baker: are there things that retailers can do to better communicate a brand identity and…
brad levin:
Rachel Baker: how can brands better facilitate that? and if you Yeah.
brad levin: That's a really good question.
brad levin: I'm not 100% sure because I'm not on that side of it what kind of rules or regulations they have. But, is it possible to put something, in a sustainable section? is it possible to, say these brands are checking these things off? I'm not 100% sure what the guidelines are around that. but I think that's the best thing they can do.
brad levin:
brad levin: The stores can't really play favorites in this. I don't know if you can really discriminate against a brand that's not sustainable. I think that's up to the consumer. And that's why I think it's more up to the brand to do this than anything else. I don't think it's really the retailer that unless they are a retailer that just does sustainable brands,
00:40:00
Rachel Baker:
brad levin: But I dont and again I'm just talking because I don't know the regulations behind this. but I still think everything has to come from a ground swell from the brand.
Rachel Baker: Okay this one's an interesting question. how can digital tools so 3D printing or AI be leveraged to streamline package design and…
brad levin:
Rachel Baker: procurement processes? Have you noticed people using generative AI in packaging at all? Is that a thing? Okay.
brad levin: I know people are doing it.
brad levin: I know again I think it becomes a volume thing. I think that stuff is very expensive. and I think it's great technology and it's going to be a few years until they can get it down to a effective point. But, I think it's really to me and again I hold my own views on this. I don't know how other people in the sustainability space feel, but to me it's about keeping it simple.
brad levin:
brad levin: And I know when I walk through stores now, the packaging seems to be a lot more simple than it used to be. the thing I don't like about it is that, and I don't know if it's the brand doing this or not, but it seems to be kind of dullish. it's not as vibrant as some things I've seen in the past. and that probably has to do with inks and things along those lines,…
Rachel Baker: Mhm.
brad levin: but when you have six products that look, relatively the same on the shelf, how are you distinguishing yourself from your competition? So, being able to, come out with something that still pops, I think, is the biggest thing that brands can do.
brad levin:
brad levin: And I think it's like that natural look that people are looking for, that brands look for to kind of get that message to consumers like, we're a natural brand and this but I don't necessarily agree with that.
Rachel Baker:
brad levin: I think color is still important and brand being able to see a brand on the shelf out of the 50 others that are on there is important. I mean I always say you can't be everything to everybody right so you do…
Rachel Baker: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
brad levin: what you can in this space and hopefully you can do more and more but it's still your brand and it's still a company and you did this because you might have a mission but you did it to make money like you need sales to keep the business going so you still can't lose your brand in that pursuit.
brad levin:
Rachel Baker: So, we're coming to a close. do you have any closing remarks anything that you'd like to add?
brad levin: No, again I just go back to I think the big brands are doing an amazing job and…
brad levin: and the indie brands too are doing a great job of getting this message out and making their brands more sustainable and less cruelty and all of that. I think it's great. my biggest thing is that I think the challenges for that startup community of how do we make this affordable for them because ultimately a portion of that's going to be what's driving sales in the future and as they grow.
brad levin:
brad levin: And I think that we should be focusing on getting facilities up that can recycle more and more efficiently than what we currently have or various different products, whether it's soy paper or, whatever it is different types of plastic that can be recycled so I think that's what I'd like to see this industry…
brad levin: where this space goes.
Rachel Baker: All right.
Rachel Baker: Thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it. and I'm going to end the recording.
Meeting ended after 00:45:00 👋
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